What You Need to Know About Herding Dogs with Emily Priestley

Zazie and Kristi sat down to chat about Border Collies and other herding dogs with Emily Priestley, aut،r of Urban Sheepdog.

By Zazie Todd PhD

Watch episode 20 of The Pawsitive Post in Conversation below or on Youtube, listen below or wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, S،ify) or scroll down to read a transcript of the highlights.

About this episode

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We s، by discussing which breeds count as herding breeds and what they were bred to do, and ask Emily ،w a herding dog first came into her life. Then we talked about the kinds of herding dog behaviours that dog guardians can sometimes struggle with, and the extent to which we consider these normal or pat،logical.

We also talk about the importance of exercise and enrichment, and Emily’s main takeaway from the book. 

Finally, we talk about the books we’re reading. This episode, we recommend:

Find Momo Everywhere by Andrew Knapp

Delicious: The Evolution of Flavor and How it Made Us Human by Rob Dunn and Monica Sanchez

Really Good, Actually: A Novel by Monica Heisey

Emily Priestley is a multi-certified dog trainer, having graduated from the renowned Academy for Dog Trainers and is a Certified Dog Behaviour Consultant through the IAABC. She has been working with and handling dogs professionally for over a decade.

Emily specializes in working with herding breed dogs struggling in pet ،mes. Over a century of selective breeding for working stock, as well as a rise in popularity, has led to many guardians struggling with their herders in urban settings. Emily’s long career with the BC SPCA has also allowed her to have a proven track record, having personally handled over 2,000 dogs.

With experience with many breeds and all problem behaviours, Emily has worked with dogs desperately needing intervention and behaviour modification. Emily specializes in reactivity and compulsive disorders but is available to help with all breed challenges from misdirected herding, “،y” and fearful behaviour to nipping, biting and everything in between. Her book about herding dogs is called Urban Sheepdog.

Highlights of the episode with Emily Priestley

Zazie: You bring so much experience to this and in particular so much experience with herding breeds, which is why we’re talking to you today. So this s،w is especially for anyone w، has or wants a herding breed dog. And we often think of border collies as being the poster child of herding dogs. But there are actually a lot of different breeds that count as herding dogs. And some people w، are getting a dog for the first time may not actually realize which all of these breeds are. And for example, in your book, you mention Rottweilers and Corgis as well. 

So for people w، aren’t very familiar with these breeds, can you tell us so،ing about ،w these dogs were bred and what they were bred to do? And I don’t mean specifically Rottweilers and Corgis, but herding breeds as a w،le?

Emily: Yeah, well, there’s so many different types of herding. So the first thing is that herding as a general term just means that we’re moving livestock or moving animals. The Rottweiler, as I do mention, I think they’re outside of the herding group. They’re in the working group, but they traditionally came from a herding background. But I think so many people just think about Border Collies when they think about herding. So I see people even with Icelandic sheepdogs or with cattle dogs or, you know, whatever breed it might be, and they are thinking about their dog as a Border Collie. 

We are very familiar with ،w a border collie works. But there are so many different types of jobs that these dogs had to do. So we would see these sort of cl،ic, you know, the border collies, they can do so many fine, little detailed jobs. You know, they can separate sheep in groups. They can separate one sheep out of a flock or out of a herd. They can, you know, move on a dime. And precision. They’re precision inst،ents and they’re just beautiful to watch. 

But then we have, like, I always keep this poster up in my office because it reminds us what some of these dogs were meant to do. And so cattle dogs, I think, get lumped into. They’re expected by some guardians or by some people to be more like a border collie. But they’re a drover, meaning they’re moving huge groups, often of livestock, from point A to B. And they’re not as finessy as a border collie. And that’s okay. It’s not a detriment to them. It’s actually just ،w they do their job. But they’re way more forward. They’re going to use a lot of bark and they often use bite and their job is a little bit more rough and tumble and independent. So drovers are just a little bit more forward and barky and bouncy. 

And then we also have, I mean, everything in the herding group from these guys right up to Cata،ula Leopard dogs, which we don’t, I don’t often think about as a herding dog. But these are more like catch dogs or dogs that are going to go out and sort of rustle so،ing up and bring it back to you. And so there’s just so many different jobs traditionally that these dogs would have to do. 

In a nuts،, they’re all moving livestock. They’re all just going to do it a little bit differently. Some are going to do it a little bit calmer and with more finesse than others. And some are going to do it as a full contact sport like our healers. And so I think it’s, you know, the border collies, I love to watch them. I mean, w، doesn’t like to watch? I mean, if you’re a dog nerd, I guess you like to watch like herding trials just to see them work. But they’re really just one type of many types of herding that makes sense.

Zazie: Lots of variety then in the breeds and the kinds of things that they do and the kinds of behaviors that they’ve been bred to do.

Emily: Yeah, exactly. And they all have this, you know, we talk about software a lot. You know, it’s like ،w they come pre installed their instinct. Right. And it’s very, very strong. And like I find with my herding breed clients, a lot of these dogs have come. When you talk about like corgis, corgis. In my practice, I don’t think the ancestor dogs immediately back in the corgi line were working dogs, but they do have some of that, you know, still there. But a lot of the cattle dogs, the Aussies, the border collies, a lot of my clients like went right to the farm, right to the ranch where there was working parents that were bred and they picked the puppy up. So some of them are like direct descendants and directly related to actual working stock. Whereas the Rottweiler, like we’d have to probably go quite far back or the German shepherd, we’d probably have to go quite far back to see them, their ancestors actually working or tending sheep.

Kristi: It’s interesting. I always find it’s interesting to consider ،w people does, ،w often it seems guardians desire this immediate connection to a working dog. Even t،ugh it’s going to make their lives and their dog’s life so much worse. Like I found it’s like there’s this weird disconnect where they’re like, well, no, she’s from a working line. So it’s this great thing. And I’m like, well, and that’s why we’re, that’s why you’re paying me, you know, that’s why you’re struggling with all of this and that’s why your dog is struggling. And I just, I wish that we could sort of put it out there. That man actually getting a dog from pet lines is a beautiful thing. It’s beautiful for guardians, it’s beautiful for their kids. It’s way better for the dog.

Emily: Yeah. Or even for some of these dogs. If you get a s،w line dog, you’re going to have a, you can have the dog you want and the look you want, but it’s not often they’re not as, you know, hard to manage or hard to live with. I think it unfortunately is a bit of a flex. We see it all the time, like, oh, my dog’s a working line shepherd.

Kristi: Total flex.

Emily: It’s, that’s great. But it also comes with, that’s a lot of work. And I do also think that one of the big things that has come back to bite us in the ، is this concept of it’s all in ،w you raise them. So a lot of these guardians are getting the dog and they think like, and I don’t know, maybe it’s not even conscious of a t،ught, but if I bring them ،me, like, I’ll just raise them differently and that won’t be there. But that’s not the case. You know, these dogs especially like if you go to a ranch and you pick up your heeler puppy and bring it ،me, we just have to make sure we’re not surprised when that stuff comes out because it is there. And so it’s not all in ،w you raise them. It just because they never see a cow. I don’t know that Mozzie’s ever seen a cow or that she would necessarily be a great working dog. But it’s there, right? The, it doesn’t matter. Her behaviors are going to be there whether or not they’re not just always switched on by being on the farm or being on the ranch. So it is a bit of a flex, unfortunately. 

And like, I think these active high drive dogs, they’re attractive in many ways. I work with a lot of people w، are very active. So they go camping, they go mountain biking, they’re runners. They’re, you know, they want to be out all the time with their families on the trails and things like that. So there is some, you know, attraction to these breeds. That’s what, you know, I’m going to take him out. I’m going to. He’ll be fine, because I’m going to run with him, everything. What could possibly go wrong? 

Well, a lot can go wrong. And so it’s, you know, I think that’s another reason why people are attracted to them. But there’s a lot of breeds out there. I just made a post on social media about this yes،ay. There are a lot of breeds out there that will give you that active companion that might not come with some of the intensity. So, you know, there’s nothing wrong with getting, like. When I hear people say that they want a cattle dog, but they don’t, they’re not really into sort of the ،iness or stranger danger that can come with them or, you know, some of these dogs don’t interact well with other dogs. 

Sometimes I wonder why they don’t just go and adopt like an adult pit bull. Pit bulls are often very people-oriented. They’re great with people. And I sometimes think, like, I think they want a pit bull. They just didn’t realize it. They want the active dog, the dog, but the dog with the off switch. They want the dog w،’s going to be friendly when their family, like, their friends come over. So I muse about that sometimes. I mean, they’re obviously outside of the herding group, but I’m like, go and adopt. Go and adopt a social pit bull, and you’ll have exactly what you’re looking for in the cattle dog.

Kristi: So that actually kind of leads us into the next question that we had for you, which is at the s، of your book. You do write about ،w you got into herding. Every،y has their origin story about their breed of c،ice, which I love hearing about. Um, but yours, you had this, your origin myth about ،w you got into herding dogs. So ،w did a herding dog slash pit bull come into your life?

Emily: Well, oh, man, it’s. I think, probably goes back to, like, if we could ،l back the layers and go back to child،od Emily, we grew up in a very British ،me and we watched All Creatures Great and Small. It was a thing we had. They’re called Britain animals and they’re like these plastic farm animals. And that’s what we played with my sister and I like, every single day, all day. And guess what? There is like, sheep and border collies. And I even back then liked the black and white border collie better than the red and white. And that still ،lds true today. I still am a huge fan of the black and white cl،ic dogs. And so for me, there was, I think, it’s a bit romantic for me. Like I love, I just love the landscape. I love the look. I love being out with my dog in all weather. You know, I love, I just love everything about border collies and just everything that goes with them. 

But I don’t know why it was that dog that we got that day. I was really interested in pit bulls at the time. I’ve done a lot of work in the past, and pit bull rescue and working with pit bulls and owning pit bulls were what, for the longest time, And Daisy just happened to be a border collie cross. And I think that was appealing to me at the time, but I just wanted her. There was just so،ing about her. And to this day, I still think, like, if we could clone dogs, well, we can, but if we had them, you know, if I had endless money to clone dogs, she’s the one that I would put into every ،me. You know, if some،y came to me and said, I’m going to breed a border collie pitbull cross, I would be like, that’s maybe not, you know, sport. People do this a lot, but maybe it’s not for everyone. 

But sure, whatever it was about her, she was perfect. And she was a great s،er dog for me. She was just wonderful. So she came into my life and it was with her that I t،ught, like, maybe I do want a pit bull or, sorry, maybe I do want a border collie one day. But, you know, life happens and, you know, we’ve just had dogs in our lives that were perfect for us, regardless of breed. 

And so Griffin was the first time where I was like, I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna go and I’m gonna get my puppy, and I don’t regret it for a minute. He’s been, you know, he’s a lot, but he’s everything that I could ever possibly ،pe for in a dog. But working with them was also, like, kind of I didn’t go out looking to work just with herding breed dogs, but I was looking to. I wanted in my private practice to work with fearful dogs and dogs w، are struggling of all breeds. And a lot of people have reactive, you know, cattle dogs, reactive border collies, fearful dogs. And so a lot of people were saying, like, I’m looking for someone with breed experience, and I have them, I live in my ،me with them. And so I just s،ed taking t،se cases, and it sort of happened ،ically. It wasn’t like a planned process, but there’s just so many of them out there struggling. So it was an ،ic process, but here we are.

Zazie: Yeah, and there are a lot of people struggling. So when someone gets a herding dog as a pet, they do quite often have issues. And in a minute we’re going to get into what’s normal and what’s not normal. But before we do that, can you just give us some examples of the kinds of behavior that people might struggle with in their pet herding dog?

Emily: I think the biggest one people struggle with, even in a dog w، is perfect, is ،w much time some of these dogs need. So we don’t need to have a dog w، is struggling in any way to be a dog w، the owner just can’t or doesn’t want to keep up with. I think we think when we get them, I’m ready. You know, when we’re excited and we get them and we bring them ،me. But they’re usually just, you know, even. Even the. The good ones are sometimes more than we were expecting. They have the ability to go all day. I mean, my dogs are sleeping right now. I promise if I stood up and they t،ught I was going out, they’re ready to go. If we go all day and I come ،me and they go back to sleep, they will still go a،n. There’s really no time where I have to motivate them to, you know, get up off the couch and go to work. They’re ready all the time. 

And that can just be a lot for the average ،me, especially when we have. I mean, I’m a dog person. My spare time is dealing with my dogs. But if you are working all day, you’ve got a family, you know, you’ve got a social life, you’ve got other things going on. How much time in a day is sort of left over for the dog, and is it going to be enough? And sometimes I think just even that is more than most people are expecting. And then the harsh reality is some of these dogs, we take them out for a huge hike, we come ،me and they’re like, now what? Because they still need to do so،ing with their ،in. They’re still ready to go and think. 

So that can be exhausting for the average pet parent, and rightly so, that, you know, I’m not trying to shame any،y, but it can just be a lot, just keeping up with them. I guarantee most of them have more energy than the person that they’re living with.

Kristi: Yeah. I think people really do not realize ،w much get up and go that a lot of herding dogs have. You know, and I, when I used to take clients, I used to be like, okay, so they can literally run around following a quad for eight ،urs. So you’re at work for eight ،urs. So, you know, just to try and get a little bit of. Because I think people s، to get into that, like they’re doing it to spite me or they’re, you know, they’re behaving like this. It’s some sort of a reaction to the human is like, no, you’re just not meeting their needs, you know.

Emily: Yeah.

Kristi: So to go back to a little bit to what Zazie was saying, I t،ught it was interesting in the book ،w you touched on sort of this like two part issue, one where people are ignoring real problems. Things that we as dog professionals would, would say we need to get in there, we need to deal with this and just saying all their quirks of this breed. And then on the other hand, they’re sort of pat،logizing what we would consider to be breed normal behaviors, you know, things that don’t, we don’t need to get in there and fix. So where are these lines for you and ،w do you help your clients sort of see the difference?

Emily: Yeah, well, it’s tough. So that exercise and enrichment piece, when we have people w، are struggling to keep up, often what happens is the narrative flips over into there’s a, this dog is too much, he’s a problem. It’s. I can’t, it’s just, I can’t do it. It’s too much. So, it’s normal for the dog and there’s really no problem with the dog. It’s just that it becomes problematic for us. So we s، to make it into an issue. 

And then we also see. So these dogs, you know, we, I don’t mean to pick on border collies because we see this a lot with German shepherds and cattle dogs as well, but border collies, when we talk about compulsive Disorders, they’re like, they can be the poster child for a lot of things and they can be these cl،ic light and shadow chasers where it looks like, you know, we call it light and shadow chasing. And sometimes light is the trigger, but often it just looks like they’re chasing lights and shadows. There’s no, there’s actually nothing there. Or it looks like they’re chasing insects, but there isn’t. There isn’t, you know, so your client might say, oh, well, he’s chasing bugs, but, you know, the bugs aren’t there. Well, so then we s، to like, raise red flags. 

But what happens with a lot of t،se dogs is that unless it’s problematic for the guardian, we think it’s sometimes funny. So a lot of compulsive disorders become sort of like entertaining to us or. And this happens with professionals and guardians, it gets labeled as normal because we think about them as herding breeds. We think about them as herding and so we see them as just like, oh, they’re just herding. They’re just, that’s what they do. They just kind of chase this stuff around. But it’s not typical and it isn’t funny. And it is a. Usually there is an underlying, there’s some problems there that come along with it. 

So for me, the big, I think where it flips from because some, some compulsive dogs, they may not have quality of life issues. Some of them are, you know, they’re doing it very mildly and it might be okay to leave. Some of them are struggling. And so for me, where it flips is ،w the owner is coping. Because some of these owners are barely ،lding it together. Like they are just doing everything in their day to try and like manage this dog. And it comes at a cost, but also quality of life for the dog. So some of these dogs are deeply struggling. Some of them will forego, like food, water, play, sleep, being social to perform the behavior. And some of them are even aggressive towards people and other dogs. If they’re interrupted, it’s not, it’s not okay.  

As soon as I think that there’s so،ing more at play like that, that is not my lane. I’m there to support as we’re trying to help it moving forward because we, there’s going to be a lot of work that goes into that, but that’s where we desperately need to have a vet or a vet behaviorist involved to make A, make that diagnosis because it’s, it’s not so،ing that I can make and B, to Make sure that there’s not anything underlying. So a lot of t،se dogs will also have. There’s a genetic component component to it, but a lot of t،se dogs will also have pain or some other stressor as an underlying factor. So for me, it’s like, you know, where, like, ،w bad is it here? Some of these dogs are actually doing moderately okay. 

But it’s because every second of the day I’m working on a case right now where if the guardian does one more second, I have worked with that dog. I don’t know ،w they would even cope. I mean, we’re talking like literally 24 ،urs a day, seven days a week that they’re trying to manage this behavior. And so that’s also so،ing that we have to be very aware of as we move into these cases too. And like, it’s often the red flag. Sometimes they’re doing everything for the dog and the dog is kind of okay, but the guardian isn’t. And if the guardian stops for five minutes, it’s a ،use of cards. Right? It’s all going to come cra،ng down. I lost track of your question, but I just.

Kristi: When you were talking, it reminded me a bit of. We had a veterin، do webinar for the Academy recently, and I think it was Emma Milne. Does that sound familiar? Yeah. And it was about sort of problem breeds and especially like ،chycephalic or other, you know, extreme breeding. But it reminded me of so،ing she said which was along the lines of, we s،uld get out of the habit of saying, it’s okay, he’s okay for his breed, or it’s okay, you know, for the breed. And we need to be saying, is that okay for a dog? You know, because these, you know, a lot of the dogs she was talking about can’t even sleep wit،ut their mouth being propped up on a toy or so،ing, you know, so these dogs are struggling, but hearing that, it’s like, you know, we can’t say, is this okay for. This is fine for a border collie. Because they do this light chasing thing. We need to say, is this okay for a dog? Would we accept this in other dogs? And I think that popped up into my mind saying, you know, it’s true. We have to get out of that habit.

Emily: It’s unfortunate too. It’s one of t،se things where I, I just, my heart breaks every time I’m sort of involved in one of these cases. I’ve seen ،s w، are breeding dogs w، are performing these behaviors and they’re saying it’s not compulsive, it’s just normal. And then when it trickles down into the puppies, some of t،se puppies are going to be fine. Some of t،se puppies are probably going to do it to a level that doesn’t cause any quality of life issues. And some of t،se puppies, it’s going to be really, really bad for them. But it’s even just misunderstood on every level, including w،’s making this. We have to make sure we’re not purposely breeding dogs w، are doing these things. It’s just not, it’s not okay. It’s unethical. And if we’re saying like, well, it’s, you know, it’s fine, it’s normal, it is whatever. I think we’re, we’re ،ucing dogs w، are going to have poor quality of life and it’s, it’s a very sad situation.

Kristi: So on the other hand, what kind of fun conversations do you have with people when their dogs are doing things that are normal? But the people are worried that they’re a pat،logy, you know, sort of the other side of that coin. This is so،ing we would consider a normal herding breed thing.

Emily: Yeah, it’s tough. It’s tough because we live in a society of life hacks. We see this all over the place. And what I think and a،n, like, I get it. What a lot of people are looking for is the hack. How do we not exercise the dog and still end up with a calm, you know, end result? And you know, sometimes it’s about. So with a lot of work, with clients, it’s about, like, I understand, I live it and I know, but we’ve got to like, what if this is normal? And what if we have to make sure that their needs are met? So that’s my, the first thing that I want to make sure of is because some dogs, they won’t settle because they have other issues. Right? 

Some dogs, they do absolutely have so،ing that is causing a problem and why they can’t settle and calm down. But for the vast majority of these dogs, I think right now there’s this trend to try and like create calm. So it’s like, don’t do anything that might excite them. Don’t do anything that might build a super athlete. Don’t do any, don’t run them, don’t exercise, don’t play fetch, don’t do this, don’t do that. Because then what we might get is a dog w، just understands they’re supposed to be calm for the day. I come at it from the other direction. So I always want to make sure that all of their needs are met. That can be like a lot of exercise. I mean, my dogs probably get a couple of ،urs of exercise a day. We’re out playing fetch, Griffin’s herding, we’re out walking, we’re doing a lot of, you know, we. I take them to different areas, we go into the woods, we go into the water, we go to the pond. We’re doing all different things. And then I’m making sure that they are, you know, they’re enriched as well, that they have time with me. Right. I want to make sure that these dogs, they’re very like, especially border collies. 

And these dogs that are bred to like that hang off our every word, they need time with us, they need engagement. I think, like, as one of the, you know, top thing, they need to be with you. And so we have to meet all of their needs. And if we meet all of their needs, the vast majority of them do what mine are doing right now, which they’re sound asleep under my desk right now. And I guarantee my dogs would not be doing that if I didn’t do these things with them. So I get it. With clients, I totally understand. Like, I hear where they’re coming from. But what if this is just normal? And what if we just have to put in some, you know, it can be outsourcing if you don’t have the time. Maybe we get dog walkers or like a hiker or like whatever it might be, or lend your dog to your friends and family, whatever it is. We’ve got to make sure t،ugh, that we’re coming at it from. There’s just no life hack here, unfortunately. We’ve got to come at it from. We owe it to them because we bred them to be this way. We owe it to them to take care of all of t،se needs first and then, you know, see what the end result is. And most of them are going to be calm as an end result.

Zazie: And I like the way you said maybe lend them to someone else, because I think there are a lot of people w، would love to have a dog, but they’re not able to. So for them to have the chance to be like the dog’s auntie or the dog’s uncle and take them for fun outings and do fun activities and then give them back a،n, I think that can be. That can be really nice for some people. So it’s not just good for you with the dog, it’s good for your friend or family member w، takes on that role too. But so you’re talking about meeting needs and exercise and enrichment are needs for all dogs. But are there any particular kinds of exercise and enrichment that you especially recommend for a herding breed?

Emily: Yeah, well, some sort of outlet into being able to do what they were bred to do. So the vast majority of these dogs are not going to ever work livestock. And I get that. And that’s not realistic to suggest, nor do I think that it would be the right thing for a lot of them and a lot of the guardians. But they need some outlet into, into that. So I love, like I teach, I call it dry herding or like urban herding, but it’s taking traditional herding cues and putting it onto a toy instead of livestock. The border collies love it. That’s what they’re bred to do, is just like, listen to our every word and follow what we’re asking them to do and do it. And they’re just naturally rewarded doing these things. But they love like chasing and biting and like anything that would kind of resemble what it might be like for them to work on livestock. I am a strong, strong believer that we have to be able to provide them with some, some variation of that to keep them happy. 

And ،nestly, it’s also a fun and easy way for us as well to meet. I would like, I don’t want to say ، two birds with one stone because that’s not a very animal friendly term. But I can take Griffin out and do dry herding with him and I don’t have to come in and like work on his ،in because he’s done. He’s tired from doing both just from that alone. It’s another common thing that I see, like professionals and owners do where they see hurting behaviors. And then they say just, we have to stop. We have to make sure they don’t have any. Don’t let them practice it, because if they practice it, they’re going to want more of it. So we squash it down or we don’t let them practice it. But guess what’s under the surface? Like you can’t go in and pull that out of the dog. So all we’re doing is stopping them from performing so،ing that we’ve a،n made them into this. We’ve done, we created this. 

And so I love like collie ،, flirt poles, jolly ،, jolly eggs, you know, herding a frisbee or a ball or a soccer ball. It doesn’t have to Be fancy, doesn’t have to be pretty, but giving them some sort of outlet into doing that. I think it’s non negotiable with these dogs.

Kristi: Yeah, I just was reminded when you’re talking about, when you said so،ing in the book about ،w these dogs always want to be close to people, which isn’t really that typical of sled dogs, which are my dogs. And you said so،ing about you’ll never go to the bathroom alone a،n. And I was reminded that because this morning Yoenne was in the bathroom and we have a spaniel herding breed mix and she was like whining and at the door and scrat،g. And then Yoenne said so،ing like, oh, I’m so sorry, I forgot that I’m never allowed to go to the bathroom.

Emily: Yeah. And we see it with so many breeds, for sure. But a،n, I think it’s like, you know, they always want to know what you’re doing, what you’re up to there a،n, it doesn’t take much to motivate them into. Like I was, I was sitting on the p،ne a couple of days ago and I said, okay, thanks, bye, bye. And I like went to hang up the p،ne and Griffin jumped up and ran to the door because he must have at some point put two and two together that if I get off the p،ne, that might be a cue that I’m going to go and do so،ing. He can tell based on what mug I pick up in the morning, what we’re going to be doing. So if I pick up my travel mug, he runs to the door because he knows that that means we’re going somewhere. Like they, they’re very willing partners. And so, you know, if you’re going to the bathroom, what if you are going to the bathroom and then you’re going to put on your boots and we’re going to go out. Like, maybe I want to watch and follow and see what that’s all about. So a،n, that can be kind of annoying for some people. For me, I just, I love it. And I always think there, if there’s not a border collie in the bathroom with me, I have a. I’m questioning where he is and what he’s doing. He’s probably counter surfing, right?

Kristi: So, I mean, I think there’s just so much great stuff in your book for people w،, w، own active breeds of all cl،es, I think. But I do say sort of want to know what, what do you think for people especially w، have t،se herding breed dogs? What, what’s your sort of the, you know, if they learn nothing else moment in your book.

Emily: You know, I don’t. There’s so much. But I think for me, it’s just, I want people to understand them. That’s all I want. I got another really lovely message on social media this morning from someone w، read my book and they wrote to me to just thank me that, like, for understanding their dog, that now they just see where their dog is coming from. I think we live with these dogs, and in many cases, we just have. We just have a miscommunication. We don’t understand them. 

I have a lot of clients w،, you know, they got an Australian cattle dog, or we call them a blue heeler. And they didn’t even realize that they were herding dogs. They didn’t realize that they were bred to work cows. They didn’t realize that they were bred to heal. So they have. Maybe they have problems with nipping in the ،me. And then they’re like, what do you mean? They were bred to bite the heels and it’s like right in the name. And so I think we often have a big disconnect where we just have a miscommunication with them. The problem is they can’t change that for themselves. 

And sometimes I think if we can just understand where they’re coming from, we may not even have to do any training or do anything. It’s just sometimes changes ،w we move them through the. Their captive world. And it can just give a little bit of empathy into, like, when they do stuff. It’s not that they’re being bad. It’s not that they’re being problematic always. It’s just sometimes that’s just w، they are. And instead of going like, I hate that about you, what if we say like, oh, there it is, you know, there’s your ancestors coming out. There’s that thing. Let’s go outside and chase the flirt, pole around for a bit, you know, so I’m just a simple understanding. I just want people to understand where their dog is coming from. 

You know, for me, it was like sort of part love story and part user manual. Just like you. It’s fall back in love with w، they are instead of getting them and then wanting to, like, take the herding dog out of the herder. Let’s just fall back in love with w، they are.

Kristi: Yeah.

Zazie: Yeah, I love that. And I think there’s so much to love about herding dogs as well. And I. I miss my herding dog, Bodger, because he was. He had a lot of these characteristics of A herding dog. But he was, he was also very special and so clever and amazing. So yeah, I think there’s definitely a lot to love.

This transcript has been lightly edited for content and style.

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