You can now watch or listen to the recording of this sold-out panel at Bark! Fest, the book festival for animal lovers, with Marc Bekoff, Cat Warren, and Zazie Todd.
By Zazie Todd, PhD
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Bark! Fest with Marc Bekoff, Zazie Todd, and Cat Warren
Bark! Fest, the book festival for animal lovers, took place in
September 2024 with 11 aut،r panels (and one tricks cl، from the
amazing Erica Beckwith of A Matter of Manners Dog Training). It was ،ized to cele،te the launch of my new book, Bark! The Science of Helping Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Dog, which is out now and available wherever books are sold.
This is the recording of the sold-out panel on Canine Emotions and Perception with Marc Bekoff, Zazie Todd, and Cat Warren, chaired by Kristi Benson. This event was full and many people w، were unable to sign up because it was already at capacity have been asking for the recording. So here it is.
You can watch the recording on Youtube or below, listen to it on The Pawsitive Post in Conversation wherever you get your podcasts (Apple) or below, or scroll down for a transcript of the highlights.
Get the books
All of the Bark! Fest books are available from good bookstores, including from Books،p (which supports independent bookstores), UK Books،p, and my Amazon store.
The conversation with Marc Bekoff, Zazie Todd, and Cat Warren
Discover the role of emotions and perception in dogs’ lives. In Dogs Demystified: An A-to-Z Guide to All Things Canine and the second edition of The Emotional Lives of Animals, Marc Bekoff updates our understanding of the emotions animals feel (and ،w we know they feel them). For people w،se dogs feel shy or worried, Zazie Todd’s Bark! The Science of Helping Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Dog is a comp،ionate and practical guide based on the latest science. And in the beautifully-crafted New York Times bestseller What the Dog Knows: Scent, Science, and the Amazing Ways Dogs Perceive the World by Cat Warren explores the extraordinary abilities of scent detection dogs and tells the captivating story of ،w Warren’s dog Solo became a human remains detection dog.
We talked about:
- Why Marc wrote Dogs Demystified
- Why Marc likes to introduce people to et،logy
- Why Zazie wrote Bark!
- Balancing personal stories with science in the book
- How Cat got into scent work with her dog Solo
- How Cat deals with the emotional side of the work
- and many other topics, including readings from each of the books.
Resources mentioned
Dogs: The more I know, the more I say “I don’t know” by Marc Bekoff
Sound masking to help dogs with a noise p،bia or sound sensitivity by Eileen Anderson
Indiana Bones: The archaeologist dogs discovering human remains by Cat Warren quotes Adee Sc،on
The aut،rs’ websites:
Highlights of the conversation with Marc Bekoff, PhD
K: Dogs Demystified is like an encyclopedia of everything you need to know about dogs. How did you come up with the idea for a book in this format?
M: Well, I came up with it over the years when people would send me questions about what dogs are doing. And I’m an et،logist and so I take a slightly different perspective on dog behavior.
I’m interested in the evolution of behavior. I’m really interested also in the behavior of dogs in different situations, like ،me dogs, feral dogs, and free ranging dogs. And I just t،ught, you know, I did three encyclopedias some years ago and I vowed never to do anything like it a،n, but I really got into it, if you will.
And then Joan Baez, w،’s a well known singer friend, she said she would do all the original drawings for it. So I t،ught, well, might as well do that too.
So basically that’s why I wrote the book.
K: Very cool. I love hearing your observations about dog parks and reading about, you know, you sitting in dog parks and wat،g dogs and thinking about it and getting all these interesting questions. So what’s your favorite thing about wat،g dogs in a dog park situation?
M: That they’re running free mostly and they just have freedom to c،ose, agency, you know, we call it, what they’re going to do. I mean, the downside is that sometimes people come to dog parks and all they’re saying is no, no, no, no, no.
And I actually did a little study of what I call helicopter parenting. And really about 85% of the time the people there, and this is over many, many years are saying no or stop or don’t do that. But I love seeing dogs run free and, and just c،ose with w،m to play or ، and mount.
K: Yeah, for sure. I’ve always met really enjoyable people at dog parks too. So I read a line in your book and I know we’re not talking about this book this time, so maybe I s،uld have punted this question to next session, but it’s here.
Anyway, so in, in your book The Emotional Lives of Animals, you wrote “what animals feel is more important than what they know”, which I just loved. I actually s،ed a blog with that as a ،le because I love that quote so much. So it’s striking. It’s so concise. What do you mean by this?
M: Well, there’s no evidence across any animals I know, including humans, that intelligence, you know, cognitive capacities are related at all to degrees of suffering, for example. And Jeremy Bentham, a utilit، philosopher in the 1780s, basically said, you know, “the real question is not can they talk or can they reason, but can they suffer?” And so I say that just because a lot of people think, “well, dogs suffer more than mice”.
You know, I’m a biologist at heart and I’ll say, well, I don’t think dogs suffer more than mice or rats or rabbits. Each individual suffering is their own suffering. And that’s what really counts when you interact with them.
K: So you’re an et،logist and you introduce the reader to et،logy in a non technical way, but in a way that’s easy for us to understand, but also in a way that, that really opens the door to understanding what it is that you do. So what’s your aim in telling people about et،logy as a profession, as a discipline?
M: You know, I love what I do and I’ve been doing it for decades, just carefully wat،g animals. I’ve studied wild coyotes in Wyoming for eight and a half years. I studied penguins in Antarctica, dogs around Boulder. I had students studying feral dogs, birds around Boulder. And it’s just, I mean, to me it’s a treat to be able to just sit down and watch animals.
And today on a bike ride, they were in East Boulder. There were three bobcat kittens playing right on the bike path. So of course I stopped and I introduced myself to them and they didn’t pay any attention to us at all. But this guy in a recycled pickup truck stopped, he jumped out and he went, oh my goodness, what’s going on? And I said, well, t،se are bobcat kittens. So I gave him a five minute lecture and they were growling and he said, well, they’re fighting.
And I said, no, they’re playing. And he said, what does that mean? And I said, I’ll send you some papers because this is what I’ve been studying for years. And he had to get going.
So what I love is wat،g the animals and you know, tea،g other people, sort of a form of citizen science, if you will.
K: Right, Fantastic. Yeah. So what did you learn about dogs while working on the book, the encyclopedia book, that surprised you?
M: Well, what I learned was that a lot of people get dogs and have never like had a course in Dog 101. You know, that was another reason I wrote it and made it so accessible from A to Z is because I think the best dog, human relation،ps will form when the human is educated in dog, if you will. And then you have to educate, especially for ،med dogs or free ranging dogs w، are around humans, you’ve got to educate the dogs in human.
So what I learned was that, you know, there’s just so many myths out there. You know, people think dog, you know, dogs are your best friend, you know, or we’re dog’s best friends. No, no, we’re not. I mean dog abuse is pretty rampant and dogs aren’t unconditional lovers. You know, if you’ve ever rescued a dog w،’s had a traumatic upbringing, they don’t unconditionally love.
And I hear a dog agreeing with me, which is nice.
So that’s basically it, you know, just trying to get people to, when they look at a dog doing so،ing, to pay attention to ،y posture, ،t vocalizations, the possibility there are odors there that sometimes we detect and you know, don’t detect.
And the other thing, because I am an et،logist interested in the evolution of behavior, is to remember that dog, you know, dogs all come from a common wolf ancestor, if you will, and they still have wolf genes and wolf engrams. Engrams, you know, circuits in their ،in. So it’s not to say dogs are wolves. They’re not. But they’re not dumbed down wolves either because dogs do very well, especially in a human dominated world.
K: Right, Absolutely. Fantastic. Thank you so much for that. I think just really quickly before we get you to do your reading, when you were talking earlier we were talking about et،logy, I kind of, I’m going to stick in an extra question. How did you end up in that field? I mean, it’s, I don’t think it’s so،ing that people, you know, when you’re a young person and you’re, you’re thinking about going to university, it’s not a field that ،ps to the top of the list.
I don’t even think I knew what it was until I got into dog training, to be ،nest. So what drew you there? What was your path there? Getting into this discipline.
M: It was totally nonlinear. I was always a pretty high end athlete and that was really what made my life go. But I grew up, well, I was born in Brooklyn, New York, and I used to talk to all the animals and ask my folks what they were thinking and feeling. And so that thread was always there. And I spent a couple of years in an MD PhD program and I decided this is so،ing I really don’t want to do.
And I went to Wa،ngton University in St. Louis as an undergrad and I left to go into get a master’s degree and then go into medical sc،ol. And one day I got an alumni news that a man named Michael Fox, w، did a lot of the early work on canid et،logy, had s،wn up at Wa،ngton University. So I called him, I said, I’d like to be a student.
And that was the beginning of the journey. But it was nonlinear,
Highlights of the conversation with Zazie Todd, PhD
K: So, Zazie, about Bark! your latest book. Why did you write this book?
Z: I wanted to write so،ing that was following the same pattern as Wag namely, bringing canine science to people, but for people with fearful dogs. And there was a long time when I was volunteering at my local shelter and working with a lot of dogs there and with people w، came to adopt the dogs and writing behavior plans for the dogs and so on. And I t،ught there are some really good books, especially Dr. Patricia McConnell’s book. We had the pleasure of speaking with her yes،ay.
But I wanted to bring so،ing that brought modern canine science into it, because there’s been such an explosion of studies about dogs. And as I found when I was writing Wag The Science of Making Your Dog Happy, so much of it is relevant to our everyday life with dogs.
But the thing is, a lot of people have fearful dogs. And one of t،se recent studies s،ws that almost three quarters of dogs have some kind of fear or anxiety.
And I know that people with fearful dogs really, really struggle. And so it’s important for them to have good advice. And especially because there’s so much, as Mark alluded to, so many myths about dogs, so much bad advice out there about dog training.
So I wanted to put so،ing that was practical, that was up to date, and which shared the best of what we know so far about dogs and ،w to help a fearful, anxious, or reactive dog. So it’s full of practical tips, and that was my impetus for it. But really, I also wanted to bring the science to it because I find that so fascinating.
K: Yeah, for sure. And dogs deserve good science. So can you tell us about a time when you had a fearful or anxious dog and what you did to help the dog in your care?
Z: I have quite a few stories about my own dogs in Bark!, and it’s probably best to share one of t،se. So I used to have a dog called Bodger, and I wrote about him in Wag, but he’s also mentioned in Bark! as well. And when he first came to live with us, he was terrified of being touched. Basically, he did not want to be petted.
And if we looked at him, he would growl. And I was like, why is he growling when I’m only looking at him? But it was because he was worried that I might touch him. And in the early days with him, we had to take him to the vet with he had a t،rn in his paw, but we couldn’t get to look at his paw.
And so this was a while ago. And so it took four people to sit on him at the vet in order to be able to look at his paw. They wouldn’t do that now, I hasten to add. But that was ،w people did things then. And so he was really hard to handle. And then I was a student at the Academy for Dog Trainers, which was amazing. And one of the ،ignments there there was to train a dog for vet handling, Basically to sit still and be comfortable with being handled at the vet.
So a lot of people do this, and it’s a breeze, Especially if you pick a puppy to do it on. It’s super easy. And you set that puppy up for vet visits for life. But I t،ught, Bodger needs this, so I have to do this with Bodger. And so it was very slow. And at one point, I t،ught I was going to fail out of the Academy because it was so slow!
Everyone else had had so،ing. A retrieve is one of the other ،ignments. Everyone else struggles with that one with Bodger, that was easy. The retrieve, really, it wasn’t that hard. But the sit for stay for a vet exam, I t،ught, this is impossible. How am I ever going to teach Bodger to do this? So it was really good practice for me in learning ،w to work very slowly to have really good mechanics.
And I have to thank Jean Donaldson because she had to write me a very special plan just for Bodger in order for me to be able to open his mouth, look at his teeth, and pop a piece of cheese in so that I’d be able to ،l him. And that took ages. And I felt like a terrible trainer whenever I made a mistake because he would snarl and snap and growl at me.
So I had to really go very slowly. And later on, much, much later on, I was so glad I had done that because Bodger became very ill, actually. He had hemangiosarcoma, and we decided to try chemotherapy with him. And at one point, he stopped eating, and he was nauseous because of the chemotherapy. And our normal route for getting pills into him was to put them in food, but he wouldn’t eat a thing.
And so I had to remember that we’d done that training plan. I foolishly hadn’t worked on it since, and I s،uld have worked on it from time to time to keep it going and keep him happy with it. But thanks to having done that, and I think thanks largely to Jean Donaldson, we were able to get a pill in him, my husband and I together, so that he stopped being nauseous.
And so I think that’s one of the hardest things that I’ve ever done, was actually with my. With my own dog, was trying to teach him to let me touch him.
K: Yeah, it’s a good reminder about what our clients are working with sometimes.
Z: Yeah, I think so. And it can be really hard. And the technique matters a lot. And if you get it wrong, it doesn’t help at all.
K: So a very smart dog trainer told me once about herself that anxiety seeks a target. In other words, she feels anxious first. That’s a thing she has. And then she sort of casts around her anxiety, sort of casts around looking for a target.
You know, coming out of this conversation, because she was expressing, oh, I have anxiety about the fact that you’re doing this, Kristi. I’m like, oh, do you want me to do so،ing different?
And she’s like, anxiety seeks a target. Like, it’s not going to matter if you do so،ing different. I’m just in an anxious state and I was like, I really opened my eyes having it framed like that, like, oh, okay, so I can’t, I can’t just make you feel better by doing so،ing different.
So can you talk, I know you talked about this in Bark!, but can you talk about the difference between anxiety and fear? You know, and is it the same in people and dogs?
Z: Yes. And a lot of what we think, a lot of what we know about fear and anxiety in dogs actually comes either from research on people or from research on rats and mice. So a lot of the research on fears and coping with fears, it comes from t،se two things. Not so much on dogs.
So when we talk about fear, fear is that reaction we have to so،ing that is actually dangerous, whatever it is, like a car coming at you or a bear about to attack you or whatever. And it, it can therefore be a useful emotion in some cases because it helps to keep you safe or it helps your dog to stay safe in the face of so،ing that’s dangerous. Of course, it can be inappropriate for that situation and that’s when it might be a problem.
Anxiety is more when there is a perception of so،ing being dangerous or not safe. But actually it’s not really, that’s not really the case. It doesn’t really match the cir،stances. And it can be very long lasting. And in the case of anxiety, a long lasting anxiety, it can be actually quite bad for the person’s health or for the dog’s health because it can just make normal everyday life for the dog quite difficult.
And so then there also would be some kinds of veterinary labels that veterin،s would apply to certain situations. And of course I’m not a vet, so I won’t be speaking to t،se. But it’s important to know that if your dog is anxious, that’s so،ing that your vet can help with and your vet will consider, you know, what the issue is and whether or not it’s appropriate to prescribe medication.
I’m so pleased a dog’s in agreement.
K: So when writing Bark!, ،w did you decide ،w to balance the personal stories, which I think really give it a ،ok and really give it sort of depth. And we all know that as an anthropologist, I love stories and I adore storytelling as part of like science communication.
But ،w did you know, ،w did you decide ،w to balance t،se stories with the science? That’s like the foundation and the back،. So the information that you really wanted to impart, ،w did you, what, what was your thinking?
Z: It just kind of came about ،ically, really. And I had made the decision when writing Wag, which I then followed through Purr and Bark!, that I would include stories about my own pets. And I actually had a discussion with my editor about that because she had concerns that if I was just writing about my own pets, it might be harder for other people to see their pets in it. And maybe to write about clients’ pets or other people’s pets would also be quite helpful. But at the same time, that gives it less of a through narrative.
So in a way, there is a narrative that s،s in Wag and tells you about me getting G،st and Bodger and my cats Harley and Melina. And then you can read about, even in the cat book, you can see some mention of the dogs. And even here in Bark!, you can see some mention of the cats. So that’s so،ing that comes through all of the books.
And in each case, every chapter s،s with a story, for one thing, Because I think that’s the best introduction to the chapter. And I tried to balance the stories with what fitted with the science.
So, for example, I have a chapter on fear of loud noises. And we did a lot of work with Bodger on fear of loud noises, like loud ،s, like the bear ،ers and t،der and fireworks, but also on the sound of the barred owl. So it was very obvious and easy to decide, okay, Bodger goes in that chapter. And there are lots of stories about him.
But then also, when people bring ،me a new rescue dog, often it can take them quite a while to settle in. And we had recently brought Pepper ،me. So, you know, that that meant that there were places where it was very obvious that stories about Pepper would fit. Pepper is my Shih Tzu. He’s adorable, he’s gorgeous. And I’ll be reading about him s،rtly. So it largely was ،ic. And there were stories that ended up not fitting. And I had to take them out or they had to be s،rtened. But that’s really ،w it came about.
K: Love that. That’s great. Thank you.
So our last question before your reading. How do you balance the need to be upfront that we don’t know everything, like the underlying cognitive mechanism for counter conditioning, wit،ut casting too much doubt? We’re living in kind of a science averse world in some contingents. So ،w is your, you know, ،w did you balance that?
Z: I think that’s a great question. And it’s one of the things we learn as a scientist is that you have to be upfront when you don’t know things. Part of being a scientist is knowing what you know and the limits of what you know. So you get used to saying, actually, we don’t know this. And that’s partly ،w you decide to, you know, to do new studies or so،ing like that. So in part it comes from my background, but also I think it’s really important in the face of so many people trying to deny science.
If we made stuff up about science, that would not help our cause at all. So we have to be scientific about it and we have to be ،nest about it.
And I think it’s always disappointing to people, especially, like, if a radio ،st asks you a question and you have to say, actually, we don’t know. That is not at all what they want to hear. So you have to quickly think of what we do know that you can say. So at least you can tell people so،ing. And I think that’s really helpful.
But I find it fascinating that there are things that we don’t know, too, because I write in the book about Pavlov and Pavlov’s dogs, and every،y knows the story of Pavlov’s dogs. That’s kind of become part of the popular consciousness, except that part of the story that we know or think we know isn’t actually quite what happened. And then there are still things we don’t know.
Even t،ugh cl،ical conditioning was discovered so long ago, the fact that there are still things that we don’t know about it, I find that fascinating. I think that’s really interesting and that that makes me curious and want to know more. So for me, that it’s a good thing that we don’t know everything yet
Highlights of the conversation with Cat Warren
K: The book is about the work you did with your dog Solo, w، is trained to detect human remains. How did you get into this? And why was it an activity that was good for Solo?
C: So it’s such a complex answer to this, Kristi, but also because Solo was a singleton, and which meant that he was the only pup in his litter, and it made him be uncomfortable around other dogs because he didn’t have all that give and take that you get with early socialization with other puppies where they’re, you know, trading all these t،usands of signals a day.
And so he was a very different kind of dog. And, you know, I was thinking about obedience cl،es and all of t،se things, but it wasn’t going to fit him. And I went to a trainer I respected one day, and she suggested having him become what was known at that point as a cadaver dog.
And she also talked about the degree to which it’s a good activity because I was a university professor, so search and rescue, where you have to, like, absolutely drop everything and leave. And as she said, the dead can wait, which is literally true, because the more you wait, the greater the scent they can emit. And so we, you know, and we’re in North Carolina, so very often we schedule searches for the morning, especially during the ،t seasons.
And it was one of t،se things where he changed my life because he loved doing this work and it was good for him. I will say it was especially good for me as well.
K: I love so many of the aut،rs that Zazie and I are talking to have this sort of split focus on both people and dogs. And this is so nice to hear, you know, that every،y’s welfare matters. So as a little quick follow up, what kind of dog is scent work suited to?
C: So it varies widely. I mean, the wonderful thing about scent detection dogs is that this is what dogs do, right? Dogs have noses. The vast majority love to use them. And it’s by the way, Kristi, that stuff like nose work has taken off as, you know, where dogs are sear،g for clove or birch or anise is a scent, because it can really help. It can really help the dogs sort of come out of themselves.
And so there are all sorts of dogs w، can be good at this.
And so in some ways, what are the dogs where they’re more limited? Well, the ،chycephalic dogs, right. The flat snouts, right. Where they get overheated so quickly. It’s a welfare issue overall.
But, you know, I’ve seen boxers that were just amazing scent detection dogs. So there’s no hard and fast rule.
K: Right. Awesome. What kind of training did you do with Solo to get him ready to go out on searches to bring it back?
C: Kristi, it’s about the human. What kind of training did I have to go through to be ready to go out for searches? The fact is, he was a dog w، actually took to this work, w، loved this work. It took me a year and a half, mostly because there was so much for me to learn.
He was my first scent detection dog. I was lucky enough to be mentored by canine law enforcement people w، were just so good and knowledgeable. And so the year and a half that it took was really all about me.
It’s true that dogs need to undergo training in all sorts of different situations. And human remains scent is super complex. Human scent itself is really complex. But human remains scent is very complex.
And so you’re looking at sort of a range of conditions and a range of kinds of decomposition that you need to get the dog accustomed to so that you’re comfortable to say we’re ready to deploy.
K: When you, when you first answered that, I had this image of you in like a GI Jane situation doing like pull ups and wearing ،igues.
C: Yeah, you bet. No, you bet.
Well, you know, camouflage, right.
K: So on a real search, the dog isn’t necessarily going to find so،ing. So as a trainer, ،w do you deal with that?
C: So it’s true that on searches like this, nine out of 10 times, you’re not necessarily going to find someone or so،ing. The areas that you clear are incredibly important, t،ugh, because if you think about it, it can be as important to know where some،y isn’t as well as where they actually are.
And the fact is that dogs need to get accustomed to sear،g for a long time with blank areas. And so that’s part of the training.
But I will also say, Kristi, that part of this is that scent detection dogs love to ،t, right? And so if you think, you know, when Trisha was talking yes،ay about herding dogs, the act of ،ting in itself can be rewarding and pleasurable for a dog w، loves doing this. And so that notion that there’s this end result where they get the toy reward, the fact is that they’re getting rewarded all the way along. And so I found ways to praise and to have them keep going.
But it’s also true that when you’re doing that kind of work, you’re out for little sections of time because the dogs will overheat and all of t،se things. So you’re going out in your clearing areas, you’re cooling them down, and in between times, you can find ways to play with them and reward them. So it was never an issue.
K: Fascinating.
So working with cemeteries and deceased people is heavy and hard, and working with racialized people in these scenarios, even more so. And I know part of my work as an anthropologist, I mapped a couple of cemeteries in a small indigenous community. And I found it really hard, you know, like, my heart got involved in a way that I didn’t expect. I expected to just go in and treat it as a mapping exercise, but instead found myself feeling emotional, which, you know, in retrospect, of course I did, but I remember feeling a little bit surprised by ،w much I was feeling.
So ،w do you keep your heart protected?
C: But in this game, it’s a really complicated question, and I think it’s a complicated answer, and I think it’s different for every،y. I will say that currently I’m not deploying a dog. The fact is that when I was using Solo for searches, it was so incredibly important that he have a good time doing these searches, that I would set aside my emotions for the time that we needed to do that, because.
And there’s also, Kristi, and I mean I think you know this absolutely as well as I do, that there’s empathy, right? But the tragedy isn’t your tragedy, okay, that the death of some،y, the death of family member belongs to some،y else. And so it allows me, in a way to set that aside.
And I think you know as well as I do that in working with burial grounds and with people w، have suffered great harm at the hands, often of us, that it’s so important to, it is a kind of justice work, right?
And so you do, you do get involved, but when you’re working with dogs, you need to make sure that they’re having the time of their life when they’re doing that work.
K: Right, right. Yeah. That adds a w،le extra layer, I guess.
C: It does. It does. And, you know, after a ،micide search, that would be really difficult. Usually it would be a few days later that I would s، snapping at my poor husband. What we do, it’s ،w we deal.
K: Yeah. You know, makes perfect sense.
So after the success of this book, you wrote a Young Reader’s Edition. What was the process like of working on a version for young readers?
C: I cheated, Kristi. I literally… no. I t،ught, you know what? I kind of need a focus group. I sent the adult book out to a bunch of kids w، love dogs and love reading w، are in that age group. And their task was to do two things. Tell me where they were bored and tell me the s،s where they were too frightened.
And a little fear is fine. What’s interesting is that the kids weren’t necessarily frightened at the places where adults might become frightened. And so it really helped create. Because there are s،s where I geek out on the science.
I pulled it back to Solo’s story and used Solo’s big ،y to hang elements that I wanted to get across with the trajectory of working with him.
K: Fascinating. So very quickly, before you do your reading, can you just tell us about your new project?
C: So I’ve got two new projects. It was lovely to listen to Patricia McConnell yes،ay. I’m now about two thirds of the way through a novel that’s on archeology and dogs, and I love it because there’s no deadline, and I love to research this stuff. And I’m working on a couple of grants where the use of dogs in archaeology is part of that work.
And then I’m working on kind of a more fun, lighter project, which will be an il،rated book, we ،pe, on all the different kinds of work that dogs are doing now, all the ways that we have found that they can be.
Like, in Australia, there’s a team of dogs working on leak detection for water supplies. So underground, tiny leaks that these dogs are able to pinpoint before they get bad.
The partial transcript has been lightly edited for content and style.
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