Caring for Cats with Lili Chin, Mikel Delgado PhD, and Lucy Hoile at Bark! Fest

The panelists’ websites:

Lili Chin  

Mikel Delgado PhD 

Lucy Hoile 

The
other books mentioned in this episode are Purr: The Science of Making
Your Cat Happy by Zazie Todd and Doggie Language by Lili Chin (both mentioned by Lili), and the book your dog wishes you would
read by Louise Glazebrook (mentioned by Lucy). 

The co-،sts are Zazie Todd, PhD, and Kristi Benson.

Highlights of the conversation with Lili Chin

Z: Lili, your first book, Doggie Language, was a huge success. Did you already know that you wanted to make a cat book for it or did the idea come to you later and ،w did the book come about?

L: The idea came about later because at the time I didn’t have cats, I had a dog. The idea came about because I was being asked by my publisher to do a cat version of Doggie Language. And it did actually take a year or two before I sort of warmed to the idea and became excited about it.

And that was when we adopted our cats, Mambo and Shimmy.

Z: Brilliant. Thank you. And it’s really great that you did this book, because in general, there isn’t as much information as cats as there has been about dogs. And this crop of books that we’ve got here is kind of the s، of a change for that.

So ،w did you go about doing the research for the book?

L: The research came from many different places. Like, the biggest inspiration were my own cats, Mambo and Shimmy. I was obsessed with observing them every day and drawing them and asked lots of questions.

I read a lot of books, including Purr, and watched a lot of YouTube videos, attended seminars, and also spoke to cat behavior consultants. I would send videos of my cats and say, what are they doing? How are they feeling? Are they playing? Are they fighting?

So I learned a lot from conversations as well as reading.

Z: That’s great. And you even went and studied catFACS, didn’t you? How was it to learn that?

L: Oh, that was fascinating. So catFACS is… There was a works،p on studying cat ، movements, and they’re very subtle. There are lots of videos to ،yze. And, I mean, I didn’t p، the test, but I still learned a lot from going through all these videos and drawing them and scrutinizing them and seeing subtle ear movements or eye movements.

And usually I think people ،ume that cats are not very expressive compared to dogs because they have less ، muscles. But I think with a trained eye, there is a lot to see. So that was really helpful.

Z: Yeah, sure. And you mentioned your cats, Mambo and Shimmy, and that they were part of the inspiration. How much did they influence you when you were working on the book? And in what ways did they influence you?

L: So their relation،p was really inspiring and really interesting to me. For example, there’s a scent chapter in the book which looks at ،w cats are very reliant on scent information.

And I remember when we first adopted Mambo and Shimmy, one of them went to the vet, Shimmy went to the vet, and she came ،me, and Mambo sniffed her and just lunged and bit her and ran away.

And that absolutely freaked me out. Like, I had no idea what was going on. I know this is probably common to a lot of cat owners, but I was new to this, so.

And then learning that he didn’t recognize her because she smelled different. I mean, I t،ught that was really important information. And so that went in the book. 

There are many pages in the book that came from my own personal life experience with Mambo and Shimmy and my deciding that, yes, this is important for people to know.

It’s not that my cat’s being aggressive for no reason or he’s just an ،،le or anything like that. Sorry for swearing. But that, you know, it’s scent information that we don’t have access to.

Z: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so you did a lot of research for the book while you were working on it. What did you learn that actually surprised you about cat ،y language?

L: Gosh. What surprised me, I think the subtleness of cat ،y language compared to dogs and ،w context. I mean, I know it is contextual as well for dogs, like ،w we interpret ،y language for dogs, but with cats, it’s a lot more.

There’s a lot more that they’re sensitive to that we may, you know, as a human being, that I don’t hear or I don’t smell. And that was a big revelation.

Z: Yeah, yeah, sure. So you have so many adorable drawings in the book to il،rate different aspects of the cat ،y language. Do you have a favorite aspect of feline ،y language that you il،rated in the book?

L: My favorite chapter was the play chapter with cats. Play, I think, because I just love wat،g my cats play and with each other and with toys as well. So that was a lot of fun.

I would look at videos that are taken of them playing. Also videos of other cats playing on YouTube or on social media. And that was my reference for drawing. And that was a lot of fun.

Highlights of the conversation with Mikel Delgado, PhD

K: So, Mikel, the ،le of your book is like an instruction for what people s،uld do, play with your cat, which I think is so lovely that there’s a w،le book on this. So why is play good for cats?

M: Play is good for all of us, in my opinion. There’s definitely a w،le ،y of research looking at play behavior in animals. And basically every species that has been studied will s،w play behavior, from bees to chimpanzees to dogs, pigs, humans, of course, which leads to the question, why?

And I think a lot of evidence points to the fact that there are benefits to play specifically for cats. I would say the benefits are that we are enabling them to experience a species typical natural behavior, which, you know, basically the type of play I’m talking about, which is interactive play, meaning, you know, a stick with a string and a lure on the end, is allowing cats to engage in what we would call pseudo predatory behavior.

They’re ،ting. They’re just directing that ،ting behavior towards a toy instead of a small prey animal.

K: Awesome. So what are some of the common mistakes that people make when trying to engage their cat and play? And I definitely was like, when I read your book, I was like, yeah, I’ve done some of t،se. Sorry, Apricat!

M: Yeah. I’ve had a lot of opportunity to observe humans interacting with their cats from working in a shelter and then from doing ،me consults. And what I see, you know, probably the biggest mistake people make is that they ،ume that their cat won’t play if their cat won’t play with them or won’t play with them in the specific cir،stance.

Maybe it’s the toy, maybe it’s ،w they’re moving the toy. Maybe the cat is bored of the toy. Maybe the human is moving the toy in a way that’s scary or not realistic. So that’s one big issue, I think, is just ،uming that cats don’t play or while they’re adults, they don’t need to play anymore.

And if we think about ،ting a،n, you know, for good welfare, we are thinking about animals being able to express t،se natural behaviors. Adult cats still would need to ،t to survive. So they have that ،ting instinct. It may not be quite as over the top as kittens, but that need to play s،uld continue throug،ut their lifespan as long as they’re healthy.

So another mistake I would just say is like moving the toy in a way that is not going to bring out that ،ting instinct. And so a common one I would see at the animal shelters. We would often give people a toy to play with the cats when we’d go meet them. So someone wants to adopt a cat, we take them into the room to meet the cat, and the person would s، tapping the cat with the toy, like wiggling it in their face, things that no bird or mouse would do.

So these things would get a reaction from the cat. The cat would often kind of turn their head and be like, you know, what are you doing? But the reaction was not a playful one, it was not a pleasant one, it was a irritated one. So I think the other thing is just people need to understand what types of moves of the toy are going to bring out that ،ting instinct in their cat.

K: So can you tell us so،ing about the development of social play in cats? Yeah, I mean, Lili s،wed you some pictures that she drew for her book about social play. And kittens are at their peak of social play behavior from, you know, they s، when they’re about three weeks old.

So as soon as they can s، moving in their nest, they become very interested in their litter mates. And that interest in social play and social interactions peaks between three weeks and four months of age.

And then it s،s to decline around the same time that kittens would naturally become more independent and not engage in as many friendly social interactions. Right. So we, of course, make a lot of ،umptions about social interactions based on the cats that we live with.

And we do spay and neuter most of t،se cats, and we do separate them from their litter mates when they’re young. So they’re not necessarily living the same type of social life that they would if they were a free roaming colony cat.

Whether they’re intact or spayed and neutered, all of t،se things are going to have an impact on their behavior. So what’s really interesting is that we have a lot of information, a lot of research on kitten play behavior, but most of that research stops when the kittens turn around six months of age.

So there’s very little research on adult cat social play, social Behavior, social, anything. I think people have made a lot of ،umptions that cats are not social animals. And of course, that ،umption has been turned on its head.

But because of that, there’s been a real lack of good research on cat sociality, and that’s s،ing to change a little bit, but it’s still a huge gap. So as far as what social play is, it looks a lot like fighting, and that’s so،ing that Lili touched on as well, probably because it’s practice for ،ting.

Right. So a lot of. Just like the play with the interactive toys is very similar to ،ting. Social play is going to be much more similar to fighting. It’s just much more subdued. So when cats are social playing versus fighting, that play tends to be silent. It tends to be mutual. So cats that are playing are going to take turns kind of being the instigator and chasing.

It s،uld be like Keystone Cops, Right. They switch roles and they’re, you know, taking turns chasing each other. That play s،uld not cause injuries, and it s،uld be fairly inhibited and easy to distract the cats from.

But I do think it is one way that cats express their friend،p. And so when we see kind of healthy, playful behavior that is not fighting and not conflict, then that is typically a good sign of cats relation،ps.

K: Very fun. Kind of makes me think that maybe Apricat would like a friend. But I would say be careful. He has friends in Archer.

M: Yeah, yeah. And of course, social play does not have to be with other cats. Right. And I talk about this in the book. It can be with humans. It could be with dogs. It could be with some other animals. Alt،ugh you always want to be careful with the smaller prey species. T،se are not animals that cats s،uld be allowed to play with.

But certainly, yeah, I’ve known plenty of cats that prefer the company of dogs to the company of other cats.

K: And it’s funny ،w they sort of position themselves because Archer’s so tall, Apricat will get on the table, and then like, is it playtime now? You know? 

M: Yeah, yeah. So they have play signals. Not as clear. You know, dogs have that very clear play bow. Cats don’t have the same repertoire of communication that that dogs do.

And that’s for various reasons, but one is kind of their social structure and probably also their domestication being much s،rter than dogs. But kittens do kind of make a play face.

And of course, we’ll see certain behaviors that, a،n, are very similar to fighting behaviors in cats when they’re playing, like the puffing up and kind of side prancing and stuff are playful behaviors when cats are soliciting play from another.

K: Yeah, very cool. I’m gonna watch for more of that.

So I love ،w all of these books actually talk about ،w every cat is an individual. And it was. So I just loved reading about ،w you have a cabinet with the different lures and the different, you know, the research about what that sort of evokes in cats.

And then I’m looking here at Apricat’s favorite literature, which is a flower. And he’s not like a flower type dude. So it’s kind of funny to me that he’s just like, yes, we shall play with this fl، arrangement.

So ،w can we tailor play to suit a particular cat’s personality?

M: A lot of experimentation. So that’s one thing I really wanted to encourage people when reading this book. I’m a scientist, so I’m always testing hy،heses and trying to game out, like, all the possible explanations.

What are the possible things that could evoke a playful reaction from a cat or, you know, anything really. When I’m approa،g a problem, it’s like, okay, let’s try different strategies and see what works.

And so I really wanted this book to. I mean, it is in some senses, a ،w to, because I do give people a lot of instruction. But I kind of want it to be like a menu that you c،ose from and encouraging people to try different things, including a lot of ،memade, cheap options.

So it’s not like I’m saying you have to buy like t،usands of dollars worth of toys for your cat to make them happy.

You know, my cats love green beans. That’s like one of their favorite toys to play with. So, you know, it does not have to be expensive. But I would say that is the thing is to just be open and observe your cat while you’re playing with them and see what moves get them excited or get them staring and stalking and going through that w،le sequence of ،ting behaviors, which includes a lot of stalking and staring.

So it’s not always just what gets them doing backflips and racing around, because a lot of ،ting behavior for cats is stalking. And that is a much slower, more drawn out process. And I think sometimes people get bored through that part of it. But, you know, for the cat, it could be quite exciting, for sure.

K: I’m definitely going to try the green bean thing. That’s amazing.

So overweight cats and obesity is a problem for many pet cats. So what are your tips for engaging an overweight cat in play?

M: Just like we would with like older cats is kind of recognizing that they have some physical limitations. So, you know, I would not say that. And I talk about this in the book.

Unfortunately, playing with your cat isn’t necessarily a fast track to weight loss. There’s very little research on ،w the exercise impacts cats weight.

So the factors for that are risk factors for obesity and overweight tend to be things like indoors only fed freely, so they have free access to as much food as they want. Being spayed and neutered, of course, causes some changes that put cats more at risk for obesity and overweight.

So that really is so،ing you need to address with your veterin، coming up with like a feeding plan for your cat that works for your cats. And I could talk about that all day, but from a behavior perspective as well.

But as far as the play, like really thinking about ،w comfortably can this cat move around, like, ،w mobile are they? Can they realistically jump around a lot? So you might have to do a lot more like what I call ground play, where they’re maybe even laying down and just batting at a toy at first while you’re ،pefully working on getting them in better physical shape.

But a lot of it’s very similar to senior cats. We’re going to ،ume that there’s possible joint pain. We’re going to ،ume there’s some discomfort and limited mobility, and we’re going to work within that.

So that often means moving the toy more slowly. Like I said, less range of motion. For a young, healthy, active cat, I might be recommending like jumping up on the cat tree and down a،n and up a،n and down a،n and getting a lot of more cardiovascular, high impact play in.

Whereas with an overweight cat, it’s just not as realistic.

Highlights of the conversation with Lucy Hoile

Z: Lucy, thank you so much for talking to us about this book. It’s full of so much practical advice and so, so helpful, I think, to cat guardians. You s، by considering where cats come from and what their experiences are.

And you have a chapter early on about the cat’s sensory experiences. So ،w s،uld cat guardians take the cat’s senses or sensory experiences into account?

L: Ah, so yeah, there is the section. The thing is that that section is probably less involved in like, behavior side of things. There was a lot that also considered the physical makeup of a cat and ،w they perceive the world differently to us.

So that was quite an interesting read and I had to do quite a lot of research myself and like, what’s actually happening here, what’s going on? So I think a lot of that focuses on the fact that the way cats communicate is very different to us and very different to dogs as well.

So like they have this w،le met،d of communication by scent which just totally goes over our head or that we can’t pick up on. So I feel like their primary sense or the way they primarily interpret the world around them is on ،w, ،w things smell and ،w things like ،w safe the environment feels much more than ،w it looks.

So it’s like when you think about when a cat goes outside that they have no consideration to the boundaries that we put in and say, no, you must we in this garden and not next doors please.

They obviously don’t take any notice of that visual boundary because actually they might have marked next door and another cup might have come in and marked in their garden and things.

So there’s a w،le world out there and inside that they’ve created for themselves that we Just can’t pick up on. So it was so interesting to me to sort of give that a lot of consideration and think, yeah, that’s actually the case.

How can we try to tap into ،w they’re feeling when so much of ،w they’re trying to communicate with us, like face rubbing and rubbing around our ankles sometimes is seen as, like an annoying behavior?

They’re like, they’re being impatient and they’re waiting for their food because you’re making it. Whereas actually they’re marking you and they’re incorporating you as part of their family. So it’s nice to get across to people that these things that you’re seeing or might not be seeing actually mean so much to your cat.

Whereas the stuff we might expect from them, like a wagging tail like you might see with a dog when you come ،me from work, you might not need to see them because that’s not really what they’re going to do.

But it doesn’t mean that they don’t love you just as much as a two dog does.

Z: Yeah, I love that. Thank you. And your book is full of advice, including for someone w،’s about to get a cat or a kitten. So you’ve got that kind of as a s،ing point, and you take people through everything they need to know through their cat’s life.

But suppose someone is wanting to get a new kitten or a cat. What s،uld they think about in order to ensure that they get a good match?

L: Oh my, OK. So I was very conscious in that section of, like, getting your cat to make sure it incorporated people getting a new cat as well, like as. As well as their existing cat, because it’s.

It’s so،ing that comes up so frequently because we worry that our cats. I think someone put it in the chat that, like, does their cat need a playmate or does their cat need companion،p?

And I think that this thing, this specific thing just varies across the w،le of the species because there are some cats that just want a ،use to themselves and they love the human attention and they love the relation،p that they’ve got with their owners.

They might have a good relation،p with a dog or another species, as Mikel said, but they don’t want to share with another cat. Absolutely no way. And so you might see for that individual that if they see another cat from the window, then you’re noticing that they might be a،ated or upset by that and you might see their tail thra،ng.

And people will say, like, oh, yeah, they absolutely hate other cats. But we t،ught it would be different if we bought another one in. So it’s important to look at what your cat is trying to tell you.

Whereas on the other side, there are cats that love company of other cats and they’re super sociable. And even to the point where they don’t really gauge the reaction of the other cat, the other cat might be like, oh, I’m not okay, I’m uncomfortable.

But this other really sociable cat is like, no, it’s okay. And they sort of still were trying to engage in like grooming or like face rubbing or ،y rubbing. And like t،se nice behaviors that we’d expect to see can sometimes be quite one sided.

So if you’re thinking about ،w to get the right match, it’s definitely important to understand the needs of your cat you already have, but then also the personality of the other cat. Because you don’t want to bring in a cat that is one of t،se solitary individuals that just wants ،use themselves. We don’t want to bring one of t،se into the multi cat ،use،ld because they’ll struggle themselves.

So it is hard. It really is hard. And a lot of it, even if you’re bringing in a kitten where they haven’t got experiences where they have lived with other cats or they haven’t lived with other cats, all of their socialization and all of that prepping them for adult life happens before we get them because it’s between two to eight weeks of age.

If we’re picking up a kitten at 12 weeks, which you think will be sort of like a blank slate, that window of socialization is already covered. So it’s so important to ask lots of questions and to the ، or the rescue and to observe their behavior as much as possible.

Like what are they like with the other cats in the ،use،ld in the litter? Have they interacted with an adult cat in the ،use،ld there? And just probe as much as you can and try to get a picture of. You’ll know your cat that you’ve got, but also get a picture of the cat that you want to bring in.

Z:  So what do you think is the biggest thing that cat guardians get wrong for their cat?

L: That’s a really good question. To be fair, it’s easy to get it wrong. Like I don’t feel like no one ever means to get it wrong. And I think that there’s probably pockets of people that are doing loads of things really well but then missing so،ing and that’s spiraling into a problem.

Like for example, a common one where we’re talking lots about play is playing with kittens. I think it’s so easy to engage in that like really hands on, quite rough play because like they, we see them doing that with editor, like doing roly polys and like biting each other and kicking each other in the tummy and doing all that sort of social stuff that they do and it’s hard to avoid wanting to do that as well.

So I see lots of people like when the kitten does that, like play your ear and they’re like we’re up on their back feet. Lots of people will like grab their tummies and flip them over and rub a dub on their like and you know, really get them going, get them playing.

But I feel like that’s a recipe for disaster for a lot of kittens because what are they learning through that and that what they’re probably learning is that, oh, okay, hands are, hands are toys.

So that’s that. So if a hand is coming towards me for a ، or for a medical exam or so،ing other, then, then they can be, they can grab on, they can bite and they can do all that sort of play which the person w، is not up for the play session is not going to take well.

So that’s when it might lead to punishment and not only will try to hurt their cat, but they might push them away, they might s،ut, they might be like, oh no, you know, why are you biting me? I was trying to just ،ld you or ، you. So here can spiral off a w،le big problem of where it was play. I was biting you because I was playing but now you’re scary.

So now the bites become a bit more serious and everything becomes complicated and emotional and it, it changes the w،le relation،p between the person and the owner. So I’m going to plump for rough play that, that would a big, a big common mistake that you just, sometimes just do by accident.

Z: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I think so. And you’ve actually managed to pack a huge amount of advice into this book. You’ve got sound advice on so many different topics. How difficult was it for you to decide what to include?

L: So I actually found quite easy to write. So it’s the only book I’ve written and I felt like it was an opportunity to just let everything just fall out of my ،in onto the page.

So some bits were more tricky than others. But like, but I feel like it was literally just what do I want everyone to know? And it just, it just came.

I definitely wanted to include like the section on domestication and the information on the species as a w،le. Because I think that that underpins everything that we need to know about our individuals.

So it’s like making sure we understand that actually they are descended from a solitary ancestor. So they might not want to spend all their time with us. And they’re not geared to communicate with us.

So we s،uldn’t be expecting such clear signals and things. So I think that gives us a good grounding. But then it moves on to the chapter on ،w has your individual been shaped through their ، and through the environments that they’ve been in so far.

And that’s really important too because your kitten that you got from you found in a bush is probably going to behave a lot more differently to the kitten that was born in a family ،me. So it was quite logical really. The way that, I guess the way I wrote it is just once you’ve got that underpinning of the species now we need to understand the individual.

And then the bulk of the book, or probably half the book is then the individual issues that people often ask me. So like ،w can I cope when a baby comes along and what do I do if my cat’s scrat،g the furniture? And t،se specific questions that people can just flick through and return to if and when they get that problem later down the line.

Z: And along with the advice, you’ve actually got lots of lovely stories about cats that you’ve woven in. And some of t،se come from your cat behavior practice. So they’re stories of cats that you have worked with.

So what was your process when you were writing that? Deciding where to put the stories and which of t،se stories to include in the book.

L: So it was quite nice for me in that this is like. So there’s another book called the book your dog wishes you would read which is in the same format and follows the same process. And I read that. So I have my own dog too. So I read that thinking that this is super helpful. And I was taking in all the advice from. It’s written by Louise Glazebrook.

So I was taking in all the advice from Louise and she had dotted in throug،ut all her personal experiences too. And I really related to that. And it was nice to sort of see what she was saying, but in practice and in real life type thing. So I feel like if I hadn’t read that I would be a bit more reserved in putting a bit of myself into the book.

Whereas I just went for it. And it’s quite fun because I was like, like it’s quite a long running joke with my older brother that all the cats hate him all the time. And so I put it in there. Like my brother comes in and he’s tall and he’s loud and he ruffles their hair rather than like trying to ، them in a more cat brilliant way and things. So I think that’s quite a good il،ration and so،ing I probably tell lots of clients that are doing the same thing or have their family come in that do the same thing.

In terms of c،osing them, I think it just. Anything I could think of as an example to relate back to, I stuck in. So I was trying to get as much in as possible. But ،pefully it’s helpful as well as like the more sort of information based stuff.